While Deb is on vacation, it's time to take a breath, crack open a cold one, and enjoy each others' company.
Any negative expressions will be hugged into oblivion.
HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY THREAD
posted by Cthulhu @ 1:25 PM
67 comments
67 Comments:
"...I told you I'd shoot, but you didn't believe me. WHY DIDN'T YOU BELIEVE ME?"
I love that song!
Aaaaah... just like clean sheets. Nice.
Back to baldness. I have a theory about what causes it.
Altitude! The hair on your legs never falls out does it? How many old guys you ever seen with slick legs, huh?
So, it thats true, if us older guys walked around bent over at the waist, keeping our heads below our belt buckle, we wouldn't go bald.
Right? Or is it just me?
(oops, new thread)
johnQ,
During my studies I came across the "classical" definitions of liberal and conservative.
What it comes down to is the difference of opinion on the true nature of humans.
Liberals (in the classical definition) believe that humans are inheritly (sp?) good. That is, left to our own devices we will be loving, peaceful people. Thus governments should serve to reomve all obstacles from people (like poverty, joblessness, etc.) so that they can rise to their rightful place.
Conservatives (in the classical definition) have a more dim view of human nature and believe that left to ourselves, we would tend to mess things up. Thus governments serve to keep us in line and protect us from each other.
This, of course, is a very broad generalization.
It is beneficial, though, to know that classical liberalism was born during the Enlightenment, which was a period where people tried to rid themselves of religion and the "need" for a God to help us to get better.
Thus we also see how liberals and religion don't get along with each other.
(or, to sum all of this up another way - liberals believe in the "give a man a fish" way of thinking while conservatives believe more along the lines of "teach a man to fish")
otta,
my best friend from college is gay and is married and i don't think (based on biblical evidence) that either he or his partner are headed to hell and that would make most people think i'm a liberal, and make most christian conservatives' heads explode.
Well, I'm a Christian conservative and that doesn't make my head explode.
I just think you've misunderstood scripture, that's all.
Shouldn't the alert level be changed?
Joe -
But I do miss the weird looks from dressing preppy with my hair down.
Jou got it, mang.
My taste in business attire tends to be extremely conservative. Hey...three-piece navy or charcoal pinstripe suits with a white shirt will work anywhere. (I'd rather be over-dressed than the alternative for an initial meeting.)
It also helps to offset any negatives re the long hair here in OH.
I'm gonna split to take my Mom on a little shopping run; back in a couple hours.
Carry on.
happy happy joy joy...
No JQP - I told you: its your solar panel for your sex machine!
RZ: I try - I mean I actually WORK at following Christian doctrine. The golden rule... It was Christ who was living and loving among the social outcasts... Christ was a "liberal" for all intents and purposes. A liberal with MORAL VALUES.
Just my .75 cents... inflation, yannow.
Hawk:
It's obvious you spend a lot of time with either teenager or younger people. I love how they're allergic to to the word "to say" and all its verb tenses.
I hope they don't get back together, because I think Ms. Frisch really needs to spend some time on her own and stop stalking people. She even admits that she didn't "have a hard time stalking" the Misses because her office was next door. Creepy.
I think I am falling in love with Ottavarima... and that just WONT DO!
ROFLMAO...
pixie,
I have heard many people call Jesus a "liberal" (the peace & love thing), but they seem to overlook the many conservative aspects of Him (emphasis on scripture over "reason" and "tradition", preached judgement and about sin, etc.)
rz,
I don't have the keys to the blog template, so I can't change the alert level.
I can just add posts and moderate comments.
Which is fine with me.
Yep, RZ - and what I am saying is I DONT overlook them.
That is the dichotomy of me.
oops, let me continue...
Jesus (and God) is/are above and beyond such limiting labels as "liberal" and "conservative."
Trying to put God into such boxes just shows the smallness of our own minds.
(This last sentence is a general statement, not any kind of personal attack)
RZ, I am in agrement with the "classical" definitions, and for the most par, have no problem with either "classical" persuasion. It's the "far" version that I have problems with, on both ends of the spectrum.
I'm sure, based on your moniker adn whaqt I suspect your vocation to be, that you are asware of the writtings of C.S. Lewis. Ever read "The Screwtape Letters" and see what he says about zealots? No offense intended by the way. He says that they are the most dangerous people amoung us because they are absolutely convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong and have completely closed minds to anything other than their own dogma.
Hawk - did you see my answer (two threads ago) re: Tony's FOB?
pixie,
So noted.
I would just caution you anytime you want to say something along the lines that Jesus was "_______" (fill in the blank) for all intents and purposes.
Unless, of course, you fill it in with something general like "holy", "righteous", etc.
yoda, yeah sure, but not at the rate and completeness that it does on your head. And does it grow back on your legs?
(copied from previous thread, in re Ottavarima's personal ideology)
Sheesh, Ottavarima, you're such a ...
such a...
hmmm. You're not so easy to pinhole.
That means I have to pay attention to what you say and agree or disagree on a point-by-point basis.
Darn ya. :)
Point taken RZ.
I am a preachers daughter - I forget you don't know me - much is lost in the written word on the net.
johnQ,
Well you're intuition serves you.
(Sounds like something Yoda would say!)
My username is "tongue in cheek", not literal.
I have strong, passionate beliefs which often times gets people angry and they try to label me or pigeonhole me.
But like pixie, I have beliefs that are a bit all over the place.
Fundamental Christians (which I consider to be far right) would probably label me liberal.
Far left liberals would consider me moderate.
Geez, just read my comments, dsylexic fingers in complete control today.
.retteb od ot yrt ll'I
Totally o/t - well, not really, but could someone please give me a layman/laywoman's definition of "Libertian" please?
NOT libertian! Libertarian. DOH!
otta, I'll defer to RZ on this one but unless I'm totally off the mark, being a homosexual isn't the sin. Being a "practicing" homosexual is the sin. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Am I wrong RZ?
"Sarcastic?"
Me?
I WON'T FIT IN YOUR BOX!
Harrumph.
otta,
Before I continue, let me first say that it is not my intent to begin some kind of "flame war". I honestly believe that adults can disagree about things and it not lead to TRO's (heh)
One of the first things in discussing anything, is to actually understand what each other is saying and where the emphasis is.
Your last post seems to indicate your emphasis is on whether homosexual acts (and marriage) are "damnable" (sp?) actions.
What I CAN say is this: scripture is crystal clear that homosexual acts are sins.
Scripture also makes it clear that same-sex marriages are NOT God's will for us (and I would proffer the rudimentary thought that "sin" is the things we do contrary to God's will).
So the basic question is - does committing sins automatically send you to hell?
My response would be - no, but UNREPENTANT sin is a good indication that you're not going in the right direction.
Hawk:
[continuing the story]
And she'll be all, "I'm back, peeps," and we'll all go, "Oh no," and she'll be like, "im going cray zee," we'll all go, "yup, that's teh crazy®", and she'll go, "watchoo got?" and we'll be like, "Oh, we gots, but you can't have none," and she'll be all, "wah! dub bull doo dee poopie hed on u creeps" and we'll be like, "What books are you reading this weekend?"
Okay, I'm done.
johnQ,
Absolutely!
I like to offer the example of alcoholism.
Most recovering alcoholics will tell you that they are STILL alcoholics, even though they don't drink anymore.
Thus, being an alcoholic isn't the "sin", it's the drinking.
Or - it's not the label, it's the behavior.
OK...I define myself as a Moderate Conservative, though that definition pisses Rush off. i am registered Republican and have been since the Impeachment of Clinton, just to show my disapproval of the Dems and Schlickenmeister. Before that I wa "decline to state". i have remained such as the BDS'ers warrant knowing how many more of us there are than them.
As far as my political views, if you read my blog, I may come across as an Uber-Conservative, but that isn't the case.
As far as religious...I went twelve years of Catholic education, including an all boys Catholic High School. Contrary to everyone's belief, the Catholics...or at least the Jesuits, encourage free thought and taught the World Religions and allowed you to decide. I have studied all religions, and if I were to actually belong to one again, it would probably be Judaism because I just love their traditions, their love of knowledge and family and bettering themselves, but I love cheesburgers and bacon too much. If you were to peg me into a slot, though, it would be more Celtic Pagan/Catholic. After all, the Mother of all Catholic faiths is a direct decendant of Paganism, as is all Christianity. I have had many years of Theological study and can more than hold my own with any Mormon or JW that interrupts a good Saturday Cartoon fest.
I have no problem with Homosexuality per se. Although seeing two men kissing or something of that nature makes me want to wretch, the fact that I am 100% male and get turned on by the thought of two or more women, measns I am not allowed to be a hypocrite. Nor does it mean I am a closet case as they all suggest. What bothers me about homosexuals is their incessant need to shove it down people's throats. on TV, in films...look at the stink made about Brokedick Mountain. If they want to be treated as equals, then stop the parades with walking phalluces and vaginas. Heteros need to not do that, therefore, they are not seeking equality, but rather super-status. Make up your minds...you call it an alternative lifestyle, then say it is a heredity thing. Which is it? if it is a lifestyle it is a choice. If it is genetic, it ain't a lifestyle. And for the last time, Tolerance and acceptance are two different things. I can and do tollerate it, but don't expect people to accept it. In many ways, gay men lead a very deviant lifestyle which is also dangerous. The argument that it must be genetic as why would anyone choose that way falls flat. People choose to be many things. Just make a decision and keep to it. Also, just because someone finds it disgusting does not mean they are in the closet. Stop using that as an excuse to justify the fact that you are not comfortable with balls across your chin. I have many gay and lesbian friends, and they are only such because they don't pull that shit. As for gay marriage..I am just plain against it. It makes no sense and agian it is not a right, but a priviledge. It will lead to the arguments of polygamy, brother/sister and anilmal marriage. If you cannot see that, then you don't even understand the argument. I am, however, all for civil things and feel that lovers should have benefits and allowed to be with their lovers and partners in the hospital and such. just stop with the marriage thing. You are not the same as the Civil Rights fights for minorities. Get over yourselves already.
I am very much for the death penalty in certain cases. i am not for giving it to anyone and everyone. The gene-pool needs chlorine. i have been on a jury for two capital offense cases and have been made to come face-to-face with my beliefs. I see the evilsw people do every day, and feel that in some cases it is justified.
I am also for abortion in come cases, but abortion on semand just because you were too lazy or stupid to think ahead is wrong. i believe that life atarts at conseption, and have been faced with that choice three times. Ultimately men should not be in the argument as to whether it is legal or not anyway, because after all, there is always a train leaving town. however, if you choose to keep the baby without the consent of the father, then you should not hit him up for child support. You also must permit him total and complete access to his child once born, unless there is a verifiable reason why that shouldn't be. It is totally unfair to take money just to be vengeful, and a child needs both parents.
Should I go on? Or is this too much for this site?
pixie,
If I remember correctly, Libertarians (sp?) believe in a mostly "hand's off" government (no nanny laws and no helping hands).
They tend to believe in the ability of humans and that we should try and fail on our own.
Go on, Hose... do go on.
okay, so maybe I'm a LITTLE sarcastic.
But your overall point is a good one. None of us is 100% predictable in 100% of our beliefs.
I'm more socially conservative than you may guess. But I don't assume anyone's automatically going to Hell; I'm too focused on not going there myself. Let's just say the "40 year-old Virgin" hit close to home; I missed that distinction by 10 days, thanks to a timely wedding date. (I'm VERY old fashioned that way.)
Dang, I was right. Better write it down so I don't forget when it happened. I've been married for 35 years (that's 350 married years) so it's been about that long since I've been right about anything.
Well damn. RZ. I don't know where he's getting that crap from me. Maybe because our 'political' conversations lean more toward our "State Governement" (which I have VERY strong opinions about) and less about our "Federal Government".
He and I disagree very strongly about Federal issues, so I tend to turn toward more "local" issues in an attempt to keep things "cool"...
... I think THAT is where his label is coming from.
Thank you for that, btw.
I have had many years of Theological study and can more than hold my own with any Mormon or JW that interrupts a good Saturday Cartoon fest.
think so, do you? Cuz I have my white shirt, black tag and bike in the car... ;)
But I'd probably prefer to sit down and watch Johnny Bravo with you.
Otta...ever lived in Vacaville?
Mmmmm....Copenhagen
Damn Hose, I think I've been cloned and am a firefighter somewhere out west. You been reading my mind?
By the way, theres a new gay western about to debut in the theaters soon. Shoot Out At The KY Corral.
Sulla! You are LDS????
Seriously?
NOT being snarky at all - my family came to AZ as Mormon Pioneers.
We are divided "religiously", but I am on the "rolls", lol.
I'm watching Wizard of Oz - the cartoons here, suck.
Hose:
12 years of Catholic school for me and my bros too, taught by Franciscans at an all-boy school, and then I went to Berkeley. Aiii! The co-ed dorms took some getting used to, but that was only for a year before I got my own apartment. I loved how my prep school stressed learning how to write and put together a paragraph. That right there made college way easier for me than my other colleagues in the physics and astronomy departments.
I'm generally against abortion, but there are a couple of situations (mother's life in danger, rape, incest, baby has MAJOR, MAJOR defects) that I can not tell a person what they should do.
I'm a big supporter of the environment (but not to the extent of putting humans in danger).
I believe homosexual actions (and same-sex marriage) is/are sins.
I think both political parties are corrupt. I'm registered Republican but voted for Clinton (father forgive me, but I have sinned...) I'm not entirely happy with President Bush, but Kerry was not the better solution.
I do not believe that God created the world in six 24 hour periods (I believe that Genesis is a parable).
I think experience and tradition are important theological tools, but not more imporant that scriptural truths.
I support the war in Iraq, but am not pleased with the "pre-emptive war" strategy.
See?
What's not to love????
*swooning for Otta*
*breaking*
Bread has risen - must put it in the oven.
Yes, literally.
pixie,
Further info (from wikipedia):
Libertarianism is a political philosophy advocating that individuals should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others. Libertarians hold as a fundamental maxim that all human interaction should be voluntary and consensual. They maintain that the initiation (or threat) of physical force against another person or his property, or the commission of fraud, is a violation of that principle. Some libertarians regard all initiation of force as immoral, whereas others support a limited government that engages in the minimum amount of initiatory force (such as minimal taxation and regulation) that they believe necessary to ensure maximum individual freedom (negative liberty).
RZ, again, we are on the same page. However, I'm all over the pre-emptive war thing. Can't wait until they land the first blow. Ask anyone who was ever involved in a street fight, the first punch matters, in fact, it can be the only punch thrown and just like that,the war is over.
otta,
I think we're getting to the point where a very large and extended discussion on homosexuality and religion will occur.
My experience is that such "discussions" degrade into flame wars.
Since I don't want that to happen here, let me just close by saying that I just find it theologically "dangerous" to modify our beliefs based on the choices of our friends and family.
Wow. I need to have a heart to heart with dad. I am SO NOT a Libertarian.
Gotta run ya'll. For some strange reason, the little woman seems to think I have better things to do on a Saturday. Go figure.
Later ya'll
Pixie,
Yup. My ancestors (some of them anyway) settled in Utah with the original company. Served my mission in Seoul, Korea. Went to BYU, and almost graduated there. Rooted for the 49ers when Steve Young was quarterback.
My brother lived in Arizona for a while, getting his PhD at ASU. My wife's got relatives there too.
johnQ,
I hear you on the pre-emptive war theory. There's a large part of me that is in complete agreement.
However, I can not make it "square" with my religious beliefs and scripture.
Personally, I like the way the Israeli's used to do things - they wouldn't LET it get to the point of a pre-emptive war. They bombed Iran's nuclear program back to the stone age BEFORE they had to worry about the nuclear bombs.
(I'm just wondering why they haven't done the same thing in the past year or so)
What's the phrase?
There's three things you can't discuss politely in mixed company:
1. politics
2. religion
3. PC operating systems
It's been civil, but I'm gonna start a new thread to help change topics.
Wow, Sulla. My grandparents came to America from Ireland and somehow settled in Idaho.... then Nebraska... came to AZ for two pursposes - with the Church and because my GF had tuberculosis. There are streets in Mesa and Phoenix with my family's names - thought that was normal for everyone, ha ha ha ha. Later, went to a TOWN with our name - started asking questions and the rest is history.
My father seperated from the church , converted to the Baptist faith - became ordained. My Uncle stayed with the church and that is the side of my family that is LDS and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!
My cousin, Parley served his mission in Brazil - other cousin Eric was in Korea!!! Now, he is Air Force - back from Korea (with AF) and stationed at Hickam.
I am rambling...
Parley - now that's as Mormon a name as ever I've heard. :)
Mesa - that's where my brother lived. Too cool.
Pleased to meetcha!
hawksp,
Pontius Pilate once asked Christ "What is truth?" The irony there is that the truth was right in front of him (I am the way, the truth and the life everlasting.)
But that doesn't mean it's not a good question.
Where/what is the "truth" in the Good Samaritan story? Does it REALLY matter whether or not the event actually happened?
Of course not.
Now, it is also important to understand that teaching the Genesis story as a "literal" event is something fairly recent (last hundred years or so).
For most of created time, most people understood Genesis as a parable that spoke to a greater truth (that God created everything, in a specific order, that He loved it and declared it good).
We must also understand that science (created by God) points to a different understanding of Genesis than a literal understanding.
I know many, very faithful people who do not believe in the literalness of Genesis. This does NOT cause them to "lose the ability to abide by any tenant or truth of the Bible".
In fact, it actually STRENGTHENS that ability.
Now hawk, let me be perfectly clear on something - I have spent a lot of time, energy and study of the issue and there is nothing you can say that I haven't heard before and have considered.
I don't say this in a mean or holier-than-thou way. I'm just saying that a further conversation on the matter will not be beneficial to either of us.
As far as what the Bible says about homosexuality, I suggest reading the entire section as it also states that women are unclean during their periods and should be shunned, and there are a few things people should be killed for too. Ya gotta read the wole thing and not just nit pick what suits your ideals. Not a slap, just a comment. My aversion to gay men has nothing to do with the Bible. And Sulla...the Mormon thing was not meant to be a "I know more and will show you where you are wrong" thing, more a "You can't dazzle me and show me where you are better" thing. I have a great sdeal of respect for the Mormon views of family, I just hate being bugged about it by door-to-door salesmen.
Ok..to continue...
I feel that anyone who says "I support the troops...bring them home" need sto be bitch slapped on a daily basis. Let's look at the Liberal view of how they support the troops.
Liberal: "Soldiers are raping and killing babies, burning villages, killing innocents, are brainwashed dupes, are murdering evil thugs akin to the Brown Shirt SA members of 1936 Germany...but I support them 100%"
The hypocrisy of these statements are mind-boggling. You cannot be for the military, and against what they are doing at the same time. I stated, prior to the war, that Bush was making a big mistake in going to Iraq. however, once the first salvo was launched on the sispected hide-out of Saddam, all that talk needed to end. Once the country is involved in a war, you must get behind it 100%. Although you may agree or disagree with tactics, and I have some disagreements with the way certain things are being and have been done, the goal is to win and win big. Mandatory laeesons as to what happened in post-war Germany with the Werewolves and other "isnurgents" should be taught, as well as how long it took to stabilize the former Nazi held territories. As far as being occupied, we are still occupying Germany and Japas, over 60 years after the end of the war. The major issue with the Left is the media made "Coolness" of being "Anti-War" and "Anti-Bush". This is our team. The Hometeam. This is our stadium...homefield. If you are not going to root for the hometeam, you have no business being in the stadium and we have every right to say so.
Back in 1940-45, there was a thing known as 'Traitorous Acts' This was a prcsecutable offense. Today it is known as Heute Culture. At some point, due to the Nixon fiasco, the Conservative movement and the Poitical Right, has become terrified of calling people on their bullshit. The Left has decided that Sedition is Patriotic, and the media has drummed its cause. The spoiled brats known as "the Baby Boomers" who were given everything and had everything handed to them by the men and women who lived through the depression and sacrificed so much fighting the embodiment of Evil for years, took everything for granted. Pop culture made the hatred and turmoil of the 60's seem cool and something to be emmulated, and therefore, the same anti-American teenagers of then, are now the policy makers and business men of today still screaming the same seditious creeds and slogans of 30-40 years ago. Fragile minds of the youth, who are no longer required to learn civics and history pick it up up, not because they understand it, but because it has been made fashinable by the media and the "MTV' idiots. When a comedy show is treated as real news and commentary, we have really lost. Not only that, but the evils of Political Correctness have now been turned against us by our own enemies.
We can no longer call an enemy evil. If doing so, you are then labeled a "racist" and an "Islamophobe" Following the attacks that killed more people in less time than 1941, we did not have a cry of "Kill all who would destroy us", instead, we had classes on understanding them. Even the very people who oppose prayer in the classroom and everywhere else farce young children to live and speak as a Muslim to foster understanding, while at the same time claiming that this country was not founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs and re-writing the history of our founding fathers.
Sorry for the interruption--just taking a minute to peek in and say hello, happy holidays--for YOU. I'm, dammit, still working, and it'll be even more hectic personal stuff after that (like cleaning out a car-sized space in the garage & humping stuff into storage units). To emailers: I'm not ignoring you, I running on maximum, and, when I'm not, I'm just flat beat, so forgive me if I don't reply quickly. I will reply, promise.
You all be safe, hear?
otta,
and RZ, contrary to what you seem to believe, i am NOT trying to start a flame war. i think i have invited you at least twice to discuss this offline ... no flames intended.
Let me state "for the record" that my hesitation here has nothing to do with you (or anyone else here). It has to do with prior experiences (burn me once etc. etc.)
You have been calm, reasonable and eloquent. I appreciate and admire that.
It's just, as I've said, I've been on this road before - I'm a little gun-shy (and only because I don't want to bring dissention and fights to this site. In other settings, though. . .)
I have no problem with pre-emptive war. I have a serious problem with us seeing an evil threat, yet have to wait until Americans are killed before we do anything. That train of thought is what allegedly kept Clinton from taking out UBL on several occasions. Had that thought not occurred, maybe we wouldn't be mourning in two weeks.
My dad joined in the Air Force while studying Chinese at Yale.
But the rest of his family?
Babtists. Far as the eye can see.
Holiday dinners were always...interesting. :)
Love them all, though. Good people, and have helped us a lot over the years.
I figure anyone who's loving his or her neighbor is doing something right.
There should not be a flame war about our individual beliefs. We are not Liberals, and we are adults who understand we all have beliefs structures formed by our own individual life experiences. If something one of us states changes someone's mind, then so be it, but again, we are adults and I feel we can act like them and handle these discussions.
hawk,
There are few things I enjoy more than a good theological discussion.
However, I've learned that there are people who are strong enough in their faith to hear differing views (and to actually consider them), and then there are the majority of people who think a differening view is tantamount to a personal insult!
Truth be told, I DO believe that there are some things that really aren't up for discussion (Jesus was "real", was the one, true Son of God, etc.). These are the things that bear primary force on our salvation.
I also do not believe that if the scripture says (numerous times) something is sinful, that we can change it just to soothe our conscience.
Now, there is already a destructive influence here at DHD, thus I believe that until we get to know each other better, maybe we should go slowly on the deep, theological discussions.
Just a thought, not a pronouncement.
And Sulla...the Mormon thing was not meant to be a "I know more and will show you where you are wrong" thing, more a "You can't dazzle me and show me where you are better" thing. I have a great sdeal of respect for the Mormon views of family, I just hate being bugged about it by door-to-door salesmen.
I'll let you in on a secret, Hosedragger - missionaries, on the whole, HATE going door to door. It's a lot of time and effort, with very little result. Odds were a bit better than the Lotto, but not much.
The best results always came from referrals - someone looking for more information, or one of the local LDS inviting us to meet with their friend.
So...who's up for Spongebob?
While I've been listening to crickets at the new thread y'all have been here...
Yes... Parley, Pratt, Standage, Dixon, Flake and Dana... I'm one-a-them. LOL!
I'm taking this to the new thread in case Sulla misses it.
Oh, and Sulla - the Baptist pot lucks were always better than the LDS potlucks... those southerners can COOK! ROFLMAO - harmless snarky.
*embracing you*.
hose,
The fact that BOTH the old and new testaments declare homosexuality a sin (and such was taught and understood in the ancient Jewish church of Christ's time), makes it a little more difficult to disregard.
Same as the old "man and women and the two shall become one". It's mentioned once (by God) in the OT and once (by Christ) in the NT. And it's pretty specific.
One man.
One woman.
That's it. Not one man - three women, or two women becoming one.
pixie,
Have you seen the film "baptists at our barbecue?"
It's a cute little slice of home where a guy moves to a town that's almost exactly half Mormon and half Baptist, and the (mostly amusing) tensions surrounding it.
It ends well. How can it not, with Baptists doing the cooking? :)
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